Lay Down Life

Spirit of Adoption

2012-01-24T15:42:00.000-08:00

Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

2010-08-22T08:04:00.000-07:00

A reader has requested we open up for discussion the matter of Hebrews 6:4-6. A much discussed contraversy over whether one can lose eternal life. The debated term, "once saved-always saved."

I tend to believe that it can be wrapped up and/or confused by different definitions and circumstances. It's difficult to make a blanket statement as such when the Creator is our judge. We, as His children, do NOT judge one's destiny. However, we're warned of quenching the Spirit.

The fact that we may at one time, feel remorse, repent and commit to a life seeking righteousness, does not negate the fact that we're still mortal human beings with human nature, will still stumble and can fall back into any ditch. In fact, I believe that it could be us continuing to fall in the ditch is what keeps us coming back and calling on our Father.

What better way to be filled with humility than when we see ourselves as useless without Him.

Can we truly and fully overcome before the Savior returns? I ask...

For your consideration...

2010-01-31T16:40:00.000-08:00

Stop paying others to inspire us, but rather be inspired by helping those in need.

What does it mean to be unspotted from the World? A blog discussion shared.

2009-07-25T15:46:00.000-07:00

How good is good enough? What is Godly/unGodly and to be unspotted from the world?

Have you ever asked yourself the question in regards to overcoming and becoming perfect in the sight of our Creator, "how good is good enough?" Of course you have, but to what extent...

I think we can quickly answer that question on the basis that we will continue to be challenged and shown what we need to overcome in the course of a lifetime. As soon as we overcome one obsticle, it only seems that measure of growth has allowed us to see all the more clear, our shortcomings in other areas. Needless to say, we are only perfect in the sense of us conscientiously seeking the will of the Father and accepting the sacrifice of our Savior.

However, James 1:27 instructs us to be unspotted from the world.

My question to you is, in relation to what we do on a day to day basis, WHAT IS OF GOD that we encounter in the course of life in this world? And what is NOT of God? And for whatever is NOT of God, are we abstaining from that aspect, or at least recognizing that fact and trying to abstain from it?

My point is there are a many "things" that we encounter on a day to day basis that can and are perceived and quite literally are in question as to whether they are sanctioned by our Creator. We've heard the saying, "what would Jesus do."

I'd like for us to dig deep into our conscience and be honest and ask ourselves, would doing this activity please the Father. And if it wouldn't, why do I pretend to shrug it off, turn my head to the notion and act justified in doing it?

I will give us some examples to get started...please don't get hung up on these. There are many.

1. Participating in and spending our time in various forms of entertainment. I.E. Movies, TV, Sports, etc.
2. Smoking/drinking, whether legal or illegal drugs.
3. Taking pharmaceuticals.
4. Driving a car.
5. Living in a city or country.
6. Listening to music.
7. Having traditions.
8. Speaking to anyone other than the perpetrator on a matter.
9. Eating sugar.
10. Your turn to add...

You may think some of these topics are ludicrous. They're meant to be an example. But again, the point here is...of the things we do, are they OF GOD, and if they aren't, how do we justify doing them? I'm sure the point of moderation will be a strong point to emphasize, but I'd like your opinions.

John 17: 1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 "I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 "I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. 13 "But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

Reader #1: My opinion: seeking to please God is a good thing. Twisting it into legalistic "salvation by works" is an error and nearly always leads away from God and His purpose for us. We cannot earn anything with God. Salvation is past perfect passive tense. We got it as a gift. What we do afterwards does not add to that a whit.

That said,
11. Work
12. Dealing with spouse & family
13. Spending money
14. Spending time
15. Sacrifice (of any kind)
16. Reading

Reader #2: Salvation is a gift, one we cannot earn and one we definitely do not deserve. I believe the enemy takes the "how good is good enough" thought process, which we as human beings struggle with daily in every area, and uses that attack against our spiritual walk. How can we possibly measure up? We cannot, we alone never will, no matter what we do or say here on earth. Yes we are to be the salt and the light, yes we are to be Christ's example here, yes we are to die out daily to ourselves and pick up our cross and follow Christ, but I believe that if someone want's to find fault with us or our example, they will, no matter our walk. Does this mean why even try? No, it means evaluate for whom we are really trying. We must understand that when we accepted Christ as Lord and Savior in our lives we became perfect in the eyes of our Father because the precious blood of His Son covers us completely and when He sees me, He sees Jesus. For that very reason I will be an imitator of God........ will I be good at it? Probably not. Will I struggle? Yes, definitely. Will I fall? More than likely on a daily basis. Will I keep pressing on toward the prize? Yes, in Jesus name.

17. Thoughts, if my thoughts aren't pleasing to Him most likely neither are my actions.

Author reply: Yes, grace covers us...thankfully. "For that very reason I will be an imitator of God........"

I'm speaking specifically to actions that we either pass off or ignore and do anyway that may not be imitating God and yet we don't really want to fess up and admit why we still do them. Or maybe we're ignorant to the fact that society accepts them and therefore they must be ok. It's a challenge, I know. Maybe this topic isn't of interest to many.

Reader #3: If we receive God's grace based on anything we do (or don't so) then it may be alot of things but, by definition, it's not grace. When we work for it ourselves, like anything else, we'll eventually get tired and take our breaks because, if we're earning it, it's on our terms. If we don't relate to God (and others) in terms of grace then the Church will become a self-righteous and/or self-indulgent mess (oops, too late). The fruit doesn't make the tree good. The tree makes the fruit good.

Reader #4: To "measure up" would be to BE the same footprints in the sand, which we are perceived as having by grace alone, because we cannot be Him except He be in us. Still, we must walk in those very same footprints in the sand, no matter how small our feet may be in comparison. The One who made those steps did not JUST hang on a cross to pay the death penalty for us, nor did He JUST rise to eternal life at the side of the Father. Those footsteps can be found for 33+ years on this earth before becoming the slain Lamb. Those footsteps go back even farther than that as shown in John 1:1 and Genesis 1:1, and other scriptures.To justify in any way, by any other form of concentration in any of the points given, to use them outside of those footprints is no justification at all. So, if we fall out of step, it is our job to repent (yes, even after accepting salvation), and ask God to bring us back in step, because that is truly where we want to be. We have a part to play in conforming to Christ.

Author reply: You reminded me of Rom. 12:1 which speaks to my point:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Emphasis on verse 2.

Reader #1 reply: All our best righteousness is filthy rags. It isn't our righteousness that God desires at all, but His own. So, no matter what we do, it doesn't truly "please God". The best thing we could do is pray God does His own will through us. I pray He continues to change my contrary, dissatisfied, and anxious heart. Then just step aside and trust Him do His will.But still, this doesn't contradict any desire to live a more selfless and Godly way of life. Just keep in mind that it isn't earning us anything. It's all about Christ!

Author reply to reader #3: This may be missing the point, but isn't it the fruit that determines whether the tree gets whacked down or not? :)

Reader #3: It's been quite a while since we've had one of these conversations hasn't it? :)

The most important part of that passage (Rom 12) is the first word of verse 1. "Therefore". Paul spent the first eleven chapters discussing doctrine:

1 thru 3:20 - All are under sin
3:21 thru 5 - We are saved by grace alone
6 thru 8 - This salvation produces sanctification (i.e. holiness)
9 thru 11 - It's all according to God's sovereigntyAfter he explains what we've been given in Christ he starts chapter 12 with his famous "therefore..."

When we have a revelation of the grace we've been given through Christ alone, our only response is to offer our entire lives to God. And that includes the transforming of even our minds. There lies the growth. When we weigh our every motivation we can't help but conform to His image. But it has to be in response to the hope we have, not in order to get it.

Good observation but we have to put the horse before the cart. it's the tree that's the problem. The fruit is simply evidence to what kind of tree it is. We're saved by faith alone but true faith is never alone.

Author reply: It's nothing to do with what we do, it's everything to do with what we do. Or something in between. Let me approach it with a question...We're all conscientious about what we do on varying degrees, yes? As we grow and God's spirit slowly replaces our own, we become ever more like Him. In the process, we face ongoing dilemmas daily of what is Godly and what is not.

Reader #3: Absolutely.

Reader #5 under separate note: Very interesting discussion. I think we all want to do better - and its a daily struggle. I often look at others and think (in my mind - I KNOW) they've got it all together ... they're on the inside track and living a life that is pleasing to God. But the truth is, the only heart we can be sure of is our very own. I've been thinking a lot about John 10:10 as to the "how" is it that Jesus came that we might have life more abundantly? And I believe the key to that verse is in our need to surrender entirely to Christ. When we make decisions according to our own will, as mankind has done since the beginning of time, we are choosing the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil over the Tree of Life in every instance.We will never be "good enough" in this life - but when Christ is allowed to work in us and through us according to His will and we are guided by His will, often in opposition to our own will - that is good enough.I think that's why we have a lifetime - it takes a lifetime to learn how to submit to the will of God rather than to do what seems right in our own eyes. I wish I found that process easier - but my mind wrestles with the knowledge that true freedom means complete submission. I strongly identify with Paul's struggle (Romans 7).It's definitely a thought provoking topic. :)

Author reply: "true faith is never alone" You mean there are actions required? Oops, I said a bad word, required.

Reader #3: It means that true faith results in action. If we think we're making ourselves holy then yeah, it's required. But how you look at your salvation will determine how you fight this battle. If I say something vile I can 1) try to clean my mouth up so I can be right with God or 2) realize that "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" and go to God in repentance, let His light shine on me and ask "what's wrong with my heart" and let Him change me. One way makes us good on the outside and is the way of every other religion. The other way is Christianity. That's what I mean with the "tree makes the fruit good". Works to be saved is nailing apples to trees. It doesn't change the tree. Gotta go. Can pick this up later via email if you want.

Author reply: "It means that true faith results in action."I agree completely. Because of my spirit being replaced with His, it naturally results in being changed and "wanting/desiring" to do what is of God. However, the process of overcoming and growing in His nature continues and as someone who just wrote me privately, it takes a lifetime.

Reader #1: "You mean there are actions required?" No and yes. No: Nothing is required for salvation but to trust in Christ (faith) and proclaim His name. Yes: if you have God's Spirit in you, as a natural result you will be demonstrating that faith through good works. (eg. a repentant heart will not continue to steal, etc)Even so, that is not to say they are "required" per se, but if your heart is changed then these things will flow from you. And not because of you, but because of God's grace in you. A "requirement" implies an external law that does not flow from the indwelling of the Spirit in a repentant heart. But what a Christian life entails is sacrifice, and that unavoidably means something(s) will be done. To say we have nothing to do is, IMHO, a misnomer.

Reader #4 to Reader 3: I think I understand what you are saying, but it seems you are making a distinction where there is none. I don't believe the author is suggesting in any way we can earn anything of our own ability, but there is plenty in the new covenant that demands we "work to make our calling and election sure". Peter even emphasizes that is why he "will always remind you of these things". It's not a question of our ability, but our effort. God does not tell us we are running a race to be in first place. He tells us to run the race to completion. We run the race. He doesn't, but it is Him in us that gives us the heart to try. And it is by His grace that we are seen a perfect even though we are not (but only because we try). We have brains/minds that must make decisions and must take actions.conform - Act in accordance of expectations; act like others; To be in accordance with a set of specifications wiktionary.org/wiki/conform

In Romans we find we are conforming to one camp or another.

Holy = Set ApartThe reason we are to be holy because He is Holy, is because we must take action (I Peter 1:15-16).

Reader #4 to Reader #1: I like the way you explain the "yes" and "no" response. It seems, though, when "law" and "requirement" are used together, I find a lot of human reasoning to distinguish between the two. I agree that to the human nature, God's law is an external requirement. But, I also believe that, to a person led by the Holy Spirit, the "requirement" is internalized.The very fact that it becomes internalized (let's say, "written on our hearts") should not render the word "requirement" to any longer mean a "burden", but, instead, "not a burden". I John 5:3.In my estimation of it, God's law (ways) have not changed, even as they apply to mankind. What changes is the mind of the converted to understand that God's ways are not actually a burden but a blessing.It's not about qualifying for anything by doing these things, but about reflecting a way of life that is no longer a burden to us because we have given up the natural mind for the spiritual.

Reader #6: I find this very interesting, and very simple. Christ lived a completely sin free life, gave that life on the cross for all mankind’s sins. Through this grace we are redeemed, and only by this grace, works are worthless for salvation. However..."And you shall know them by their fruits" , I believe works are the product of salvation, the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and an incredible urge to repay Christ for his unconditional Grace (even though we know there is no way to repay). Does salvation mean we will do no wrong? Nope, so I agree we should be ever vigilant in our attempts to imitate the Lord as best we can. Just don't be surprised when you fail, keep trying and know that the Lord still Loves you.

Author reply: We can talk about being covered by grace and/or works until the cows come home. Does anybody want to speak to individual battles of evil that we are confronted with? Everyone decides in their own mind, just the way it is, as to what we face day to day, in regards to what is evil and what is good.It's funny, we have a problem putting a label of evil or good on anything. Are we afraid of labeling something as evil and thus giving us no excuse to continue enjoying it?

I personally battle things that are time wasters or diversions of my attention...and there are a lot.I personally battle things that are time wasters or diversions of my attention...and there are a lot.

Reader #6 to reader 4: I truly appreciate the insight, but the Law no longer holds any more significance, to any end, other than guidance.Christ's sacrifice removed the need for the Law. I will agree its a great template to guide you through life "a blessing" as you say, but important for Salvation, or even "required" at all, no. God already knows our hearts, start to finish, outward works can be faked, the law can be broken in private, but you can't hide your heart from God.
Reader #4 to Reader #6: Your last statement is why we have the following:Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Author reply to Reader #6: Not that this is a thread to discuss whether the law has been done away or not. But by what means do you determine how to live your life? Did you come up with it on your own? Who told us not to kill? And if that law is done away, then what prevents us from killing? And if we killed, would we say we have not broken any law? Oh, but to kill was one reiterated by Jesus Christ, right?

Reader #4 Hebrews 9:9 It will not be like covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.

Hebrews 10:15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[a] 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."

As to the author’s comment, I have trouble breaking it down, because I believe ANYTHING, seemingly good, bad, or indifferent can be the subject of our minds putting ourselves above God and neighbor. Your list of 10 already suggests that, though.

Author: I wonder how much of an outcast we would view Jesus Christ as if he were walking among us in the flesh today? You think he'd sit down and watch TV with us, go to a ball game, listen to some AC/DC, smoke a joint? Just pondering....:)

Reader 4: LOL! I've wondered the same. I think I'd just ask Him what He wants to do, and can I come along?

Author: What I'm suggesting, and it's not going to be very popular, and I will also add that I'm probably the worst example to be stating this, is that we may very well be wasting our time with peripheral things, whether they're good or bad. If we are truly wishing to be "about the Father's business", and some will say that was just for Jesus Christ, then we really don't have time for anything else but work, to provide for our families and serve others.What I'm suggesting is that we live in a world that dumbs us down, seeking creature comforts, or busying ourselves with nonsensical stuff that, to this society, is "life the way it's supposed to be." There is amazing fulfillment in devoting our lives to helping others. I've experienced it. I desire it. Unfortunately, I still have obstacles that I allow in my life I hunger for obtaining the “fullness of Christ”. Unfortunately, I’m too great a hypocrite and I’m still working on my terms.

Reader #7: It seems odd in light of some of the above comments that the servant that did not even lend out for usuary the single talent he was given, had the original talent taken away from him.

Reader #2: What about a glass of wine or a cold beer? I can't see Jesus scoring some weed, but would He have a cold one? Should we? Seriously wondering....

Reader #4: Absolutely! Especially if it's Chimay. Of course, we would have to wait until he returns to establish his kingdom, because he said he wouldn't drink the fermented stuff again until he returned.Luke 22:18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."I could be going overboard, though, because he was just referencing the "fruit of the vine". ;-)The real question for me would not be whether to partake or to abstain, but how much is "moderation".

Reader 4 to author: I think you bring up something that we must each ponder. I agree there are many distractions, most of which we tell ourselves, "I wasn't going to be doing anything, anyway." At the same time, you would have to be a roving spirit finding the person needing a flat fixed, needing soup from the kitchen, needing to hear encouragement from the word of God, etc.I suppose the trick is to not waste our time on irrelevant stuff when something relevant is also available to do.????? Just as our brain needs sleep, it probably needs periods of the unnecessary.By no means would I suggest we need time spent on things that are sinful, but sin is the transgression of law and nothing else.We can talk about what reasons the two men walked around the robbed and injured man, but the bottom line is, as they were walking by the way, they saw somebody in need and chose to do something else. It could have been important. It could have been to go fishing for fun. They made the wrong choice.

Reader 4: The "Absolutely!" post was in reply to something that is no longer there. Maybe I imagined it. Should I remove it?

Reader 1 to 4: I think you were responding to my post that I somehow deleted, not sure what I was trying to do but that wasn't it!.... I agree! The church I attend now does not agree at all. In fact there isn't room for even a discussion of it. I myself am of your same opinion so for the most part I keep my opinion to myself. Plus I have learned that it really isn't the church doctrines that lead and guide me but it is my relationship with the Lord. Even He Himself brought the "good stuff" out last:) You guys have a good night, I am out for now:)

Author: Reader 1 told me I could repost her comment:What about a glass of wine or a cold beer? I can't see Jesus scoring some weed, but would He have a cold one? Should we? Seriously wondering....

Reader 3: "But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguished good from evil" ~ Heb 5:14Christianity is full of gray areas. But that's where the maturity is. If having a beer results in bad fruit in our life then a beer is sin us. If it doesn't then it's not. ...unless you're drinking it in front of a brother who would be offended or would be emboldened to partake even though he's convicted against it.(Rom 14). Then it's not love and therefore sin.Gray areas abound don't they? But it's better than a list. Lists appeal to our fallen nature that loves to compare itself to others. Minimum requirements beget minimum compliance. It's just how we're wired. The growth is in being completely intellectually honest with yourself and making the good and beautiful decision based on love.

Reader 8: I have to believe that Jesus would love to sit at a ball game and maybe even have a cold one.

Reader 6: Wow, I leave to mow the lawn and get trampled. My statement is not to disregard the laws teachings, not at all, but to suggest that we need to follow it for the purpose of Salvation is wrong. The fact that you suggest we be wary of the world and its devices is truly valid, but when you start listing what you believe to be right or wrong I believe you can lose focus on what Christ was teaching, worshipping the Lord and Loving your neighbor. You can toss as much scripture at me as you want but you can't deny Matt. 22:37-40.

Author: "Minimum requirements beget minimum compliance."I agree completely. If we knew of the day in which we were going to die, we'd probably live life invariably wrong until that final day of repenting. Inevitably it's why die daily. I don't particularly care for lists of right or wrong either, but I respect that it is the way we started out as babes in order to understand boundaries and gradually grow to the point that they became inherent.

Reader 3: I truly could (and have thought about doing so) write a book on this subject. After striving for my salvation for years I finally got the whole Abraham connection (Rom 4; Gal 3; Heb 11; Jms 2) and got a grasp on how huge grace is and what an amazing change that happened to me. I started serving the Lord because He saved me as opposed to doing it in order to be saved. What peace it brought to my life. It made me look at God so differently. He's no longer the taker who wants us to perform for His approval. He's truly the complete giver and I have His approval so I give him my life in response which has produced infinitely more righteousness in my life than threats of losing my salvation if I don't do enough (i.e. the title of this thread)Gotta get some stuff done so I'm out of this one (unless someone directs a question to me). I'll send you a friend request. Maybe we can catch up.

Reader 1: My 2 cents: whatever you do, do it to the Lord. Whatever you abstain from, abstain from it to the Lord.These 3 things remain - faith, hope, and love. Be motivated by love, and you can hardly go wrong.

Reader 3: Can you appreciate the order those are in? By faith we have the blessed hope which produces the love (Titus 3:4-7)

Reader 4 to 1, 3, and 6: Your comments about faith, hope, and love, about grace and salvation are agreed to at least where you back them up with God's word. These are a given fact. I'm very confident the author nor myself feel any justification by law. We are very well aware that we cannot save ourselves or do enough good to meet the demands of an unforgiving God.I believe what all of you seem unwilling to face is the very meanings of the words you are bandying about like catch phrases. Those words have real definitions and only validly defined by God's Word, the whole word of God. You don't want me or somebody else quoting scriptures to make our point. Is this supposed to be some battle of the "catch phrases"?I believe the author is wanting to discuss something far deeper than catch phrases and feel good'isms. He wants to discuss how we practice God's way. To just say, follow your conscience and do the right thing means absolutely nothing without definition.

Reader 1 to reader 4: do you keep the whole law?

Reader 4: I take from the author's initial point that we don't come up out of the water fully understanding righteousness. We might have some past time, hobby, interest, even sin for which, initially, we think we are doing pretty good in God's sight, good enough.Understand this is from the basis of already understanding Jesus died for all my sins, but with it comes the understanding that I must GROW in grace (God's favor) and knowledge (His KNOWLEDGE).As we go along, our growth may reveal to us that what we thought was "good enough" isn't because we are still putting things ahead of God, or justifying a sin simply because the old man being dead in spirit is all too alive in practice.He’s asking us, as he asks himself, what is good enough? Thankfully, we've each got as long as God thinks we need to grow in grace and knowledge, for we would probably implode or explode if we knew the distance our own righteousness is from His.

Sorry if I've misunderstood your purpose for the post.

Author: Let's be conscious, self included, of just what and how we try to impress a matter on the other. We can easily prove ourselves in a way they we may not want by "getting the better, or one-upping, of the next person."I'm all too familiar with getting wrapped up in a debate such as that. It's not my intention.

For the most part, yes. But as I mentioned in the main part of the note, I think we've got the "how good is good enough" concept understood. Rather than take the title and try to answer it specifically, I'm using it as a springboard to discuss how you say "we are still putting things ahead of God, or justifying a sin simply because the old man being dead in spirit is all too alive in practice.”

There really is no need for debate on the subject of grace, but then again, I don’t want to really squelch what people want to talk about. But I would ask that my words not be twisted to mean otherwise.

Reader #1: I appreciate what reader #4 is saying, and I'm not offended. I know that God is love. And I can see that he deeply loves God in the way he understands. I will never begrudge a person that.I would hope we all could concentrate on what we agree on rather than what we disagree on.For what it's worth, I think deeply meditating on areas of our lives where we could improve is not a bad thing!

Reader 9: Live and let LIVE.

Reader 6: It’s never been my intent to one up anyone or win a debate, only for my posts to be understood correctly. I'm not even sure what catch phrases are being used. Besides the point is unimportant, I'm not sure about the other J's, I only know how I feel. Obviously there are those who feel very strongly about their beliefs, and I have never attempted to begrudge anyone theirs. I only wish for "my views" to be understood as I have meant. If I have offended anyone I apologize. Love and God Bless!

Reader 3 to Reader 4: It's hard to go over this stuff via internet. First know that I used to believe that I was saved by grace but maintained grace by works. Abraham was the arch type of what true faith was. When you can connect his encounter with God (the firepot in Gen 15) with Rom 4; Gal 3 &4, Heb 6; Heb 11; Js 2. God swore by himself that he was going to perform what he promised while Abraham was sleeping (resting). Fast foward to Gen 18 and Abraham gets circumcised. Go to Gen 22 and Abraham obeys God and God says "because" you have done this I will confirm the covenant. But the thing is, God swore by himself already (Gen 15/Heb 6). God knows what real faith is. Rom 4 explains that he was justified by faith alone. Heb 11 shows he had faith that God could resurrect Isaac from the dead (just like he made Sara's dead womb live). James uses Abraham to show that true faith (a living faith) produces fruit.

Author: No worries guys. I just know how I can get off track. It's get the better of me sometimes. I'm not making any accusations. I appreciate everyone's input.

Reader 3: It's not just a tomato/tomaato thing. How we look at our salvation affects how we handle our sin. We're either saved by grace or we're saved by grace and works. If we sin we'll handle it one of two ways (see the tree/fruit comment somewhere above). In the Roman world, a slave could live in the house of his master as long as the master felt like it. That was the extent of the relationship. If the slave messed up, he could legally be disowned. If the master decided he loved the slave and adopted him, then legally, there was no way to un-adopt the slave. When Jesus and Paul talk about becoming sons, this is what they meant. The slave would then relate much differently to his new father. Not out of fear but out of love (Rom 8:14-16; Gal 4) In the Old Covenant, the promises flowed from their obidience. In the New Covenant, our obidience flows from the promises. Grace is the difference. When we feel this grace, we extend it to others as an overflow coming out of us like..well fruit.

We're all passionate about this which is cool. My apologies if I came across as unloving, k?

Author to reader 4: I just reread what I wrote and wanted to make sure I wasn't getting on to you and saying you were misrepresenting my point. I think you did expound on it well.

To Reader 3: unloving? :) No. You should write that book though.

Reader 10: We all have shortcomings. We all want to think we are more Godly than we really are. We want to be good. We want to love & be loved. I believe as long as we know this, look to God for guidance, heartfelt effort in our growth, we are then fulfilling our purpose on this earth. This approach is expansive in life. It is also my belief that God knows what is best for each & every one of us. Why do so many of us then continue to struggle & have the fight seems almost impossible to "win". God knows when the time is right for all of us. Many of us have to go through many more of life's lessons before we truly get it & then can truly learn to LOVE. We can worry about right & wrong all day long. Focus on accepting the love & sacrifice of Christ is the issue, & the rest He will take care of. He is in control - not us & our humanly efforts.

Reader 2: Ok, so on my 55 minute drive to Talequah I had some time to "ponder" this thread and I had to smile as I don’t think any of us actually responded to what our good friend really asked. In my daily life what do I encounter that may not be of God, and how do I handle it, well......let's be honest.....I guess that all depends on how bad I want to do whatever it is, or what kind of mood am I in at the time, am I prayed up and ready for battle or am I tired and not really interested in taking the high road at that moment? Working with the public is a great example of many situations that are definitely not of God. In handling people do I choose to be compassionate and kind no matter what or do I respond to them as they are treating me? That's hard because honestly I would rather slap them in the name of Jesus than show them Jesus by loving them. Does that make me a hypocrite? I struggle with language, when I was away from the Lord I picked up many bad habits and one was a foul mouth and honestly I have to ask the Lord daily to put a reign on my tongue because to people I am around there isn't anything wrong with cussing, it is basically socially acceptable, but I know it is not acceptable to my Father and I have to consciously choose not to do it. You asked why we pretend to shrug off what I would call conviction if we know something would not be pleasing to Him and do it anyway and be justified while we are doing it......because we are rotten to the core!:) I wonder on some things do we really even ask ourselves would this action be pleasing to Him because we know the answer in our heart and to ask would then mean we would have to act upon the answer when it would really be easier to just do it and then worry about it later.... I’m just being honest here.....I would like to put myself in the category of abstaining or at least recognizing and trying to abstain.....certainly not trying to justify, just putting myself out there daily so God can take what I have to give and use it to His intended purpose. I thank Him for taking my trash and turning it to treasure:) I would give more examples but we have to save something for later right?! :-) Goodnight!

Author: I had pretty much given up on us getting to the point I was wanting to discuss, but Reader 2 has resurrected the essence of the topic. Thank you.

It's difficult to fess up on the day to day battles, and though I'm not necessarily trying to bring out the "confess your sins to one another," aspect, I certainly welcome anybody who dares. It's so much easier to get into a debate over faith, works, grace, law then to actually talk about our walk. It's humiliating, revealing, humbling, incriminating. Our battle with principalities is no small matter.

Reader 2: I agree......I also think that is exactly how the enemy would prefer it. I mean, if we never open up to one another regarding struggles we are having because it is "humiliating, revealing, humbling, incriminating", we in a sense isolate ourselves in our struggle and open a door for more self condemnation and self doubt. Satan loves for us to think "am I the only one who has this problem?" Do I really WANT to tell you I struggle with something? No, I WANT you to think I am Super Christian and have no worries. It really comes down to a pride thing. I know that 21 years ago, if I had layed down my pride and talked with someone about my personal struggles, the battle going on in my mind, I more than likely would not have left my husband and my home, I gave the enemy a victory at that time. I know that is why it is written in Ecc4:12 "Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken." Seriously, should we band together or what?

Reader 5: "Wow! I've been following the thread. Great discussion and insights. Way to stimulate our minds regarding the "reality" of what this life is truly all about."

Reader 1: I often deal with impatience. I think that this high-tech world has made certain things so fast, I personally don't like to wait at all anymore. Satan finds an easy way to get at me in that.I also have a huge problem with talking to people in person. I want to get to the point and get it over with. People who go on and on with idle chit chat.. I just lose interest and I stop listening. I would like to do better, but the way I do not find. I just don't know how to make myself stay in the conversation when someone is going on about something I don't care to listen to. Like when someone spends 15 minutes telling me about shopping for a cell phone. I can't make myself pay attention to that.

Reader 11: I think about this subject often. I think as someone mentioned earlier, as you learn more of God's way and he opens your mind you become more aware of the things you personally are doing that are time-wasters or 'idols' (e.g., anything that you are putting before God). Would Jesus be on Facebook? :) I sometimes spend too much time on here but mostly I just look out here to unwind. You need to have some diversions. For myself I feel that watching TV and movies is a big time waster. There are many other things I could be doing (sending cards to the sick, visiting sick people, teaching my children more about God, etc). I've often thought about eating sugar since it's a personal weakness. I know it's not healthy but eat it anyway. I don't justify it but just ignore it mostly. God says our bodies are temples to the living God. Obviously sugar is not good for you and many diseases are related to overconsumption.

I think as God works with you to open your mind to the things you are doing that are not helping you grow, you also have to pray that he give you the 'will' to change these things. I know we have freedom to choose and 'free will' but I also think praying to God and asking him to help strengthen our will (if we truly desire to change and can't seem to muster the strength on our own to change), that he will help us...

Reader 10: I think many are saying parts of the same thing. I know its not my strong suit to be able to just sit down & expressively write my thougths & opinions. Guess that's why I mainly got B's on my term papers - Oh well. I'm just saying that worrying about our shortcomings for some can be a religion. I think we have all been there a time or two. If worry is the underlying motive to search & discuss - no real growth will occur. On the other hand it can be a great benefit to discuss faults w/a beliver because it can bring awareness. Since open minds are discussing His way of life, God is pleased, & thus awareness comes from the God through His Spirit. This leads me back to my final 2 sentences in my last comment. Many of us in the past, present, & future as well worry about being the fine "Ming" pottery, but all God wants is moldable clay.*** I have to admit, writing is still easier than living it on a daily basis.

Author: On the subject of Godly and unGodly, I'm trying to prepare myself for when my kids become teens, and I'm curious as to how parents rationalize allowing their kids, or even themselves, to dress provocatively, in such a way of exposing themselves to any degree. I guess what I'm asking is cleavage Godly? Or is it just unGodly for an undesirable sort to be enticed by such? Is it because it is perceived to be socially acceptable, the cleavage that is?

I realize this gets into a cultural matter of what is socially acceptable and I ask the question, why is this acceptable? I think it’s pitiful how young girls personify people of the likes of Britney Spears or Hannah Montana. Don’t get me wrong, the men are not innocent on this matter. I mean, the world has problem enough with rampant pornography.

Reader 2: Start praying now........! The boundaries have been pushed so far back they are barely seen. To be the parent that say's no, that stands firm, that sets boundaries and keeps them is hard, because it seems like there aren't that many anymore. I think most parents rationalize because it's easier than being inconvenienced, and much less painful than being "hated" by your children. As far as cleavage being unGodly, that all just comes down to motive. If you are setting out to entice then I think you are wrong, even if it is "socially acceptable". Call me crazy......

Reader 5 to author: To your last comment, I'm totally there. My oldest is turning 16 next month. I think you will do well in your family by talking about all issues as a family - have regular discussions in front of your children about inappropriate clothing, actions, even appearances. A week at the beach is an opportunity for countless discussions! Just don't wait until they're teens - they've already developed their opinions at that point, and if they haven't heard their parents' opinions, then these opinions come from other sources. Scary, isn't it?

Reader 12: Great dialogue and thought provoking on many levels. Thanks for posting.
Author: I don't think you can talk about what is Godly/unGodly without bringing up the opinion that "grey" areas exist. In other words, speaking to a matter that we really don't have or don't want to answer to. We all remember decades ago when the churches would mandate how one should dress. Like a woman's skirt length not being above the knee. And today, well, I can’t say that there is much discretion made.

Interestingly, yesterday, I was discussing with my study group and the subject came up about distinguishing between church dress and how we would dress when one would, say, go out, maybe to a club. And the fact that there should be a distinction. I ask, should there? Is it quite hypocritical to say that we should dress more modest when going to church as opposed to dressing in such a manner as, “here I am, pick me up. “ Are we trying to live double lives here?
And back to what I allude to earlier...when a friend's daughter dresses in such a way in which her breasts are exposed, what is it that prevents someone from actually commenting, whether complimenting or expressing disapproval. I mean, and I know this is crude, but to get the point across...say it was you or me and our friend's 16 year old is revealing herself, I know it’s completely inappropriate, but really, they put themselves out there to be noticed, what prevents us from saying “nice breasts.” Well, I’ll tell you, right now, it’s because it’s not socially acceptable...yet!

It’s just unfortunate that there is an outcry about the perversion and sexual offenses while we allow our daughters to go out dressed as they do. And we wonder why these things happen.

I didn't mean to get away from the subject of "grey" areas, but wanted to ask the question here: Are "grey" areas of a moral/spiritual matter legitimate? Can they truly exist or does everything really need to be either Godly or unGodly?

Again I ask what does it mean to be unspotted from the world?

The Real Reason for Digital TV?

2009-07-24T13:56:00.000-07:00

Ex-IBM Employee reveals TV Abandoned Analog Band to Make Room for RFID Chips

According to a former 31-year IBM employee, the highly-publicized, mandatory switch from analog to digital television is mainly being done to free up analog frequencies and make room for scanners used to read implantable RFID microchips and track people and products throughout the world.

So while the American people, especially those in Texas and other busy border states, have been inundated lately with news reports advising them to hurry and get their expensive passports, “enhanced driver’s licenses,” passport cards and other “chipped” or otherwise trackable identification devices that they are being forced to own, this digital television/RFID connection has been hidden, according to Patrick Redmond.

Redmond, a Canadian, held a variety of jobs at IBM before retiring, including working in the company’s Toronto lab from 1992 to 2007, then in sales support. He has given talks, written a book and produced a DVD on the aggressive, growing use of passive, semi-passive and active RFID chips (Radio Frequency Identification Devices) implanted in new clothing, in items such as Gillette Fusion blades, and in countless other products that become one’s personal belongings. These RFID chips, many of which are as small, or smaller, than the tip of a sharp pencil, also are embedded in all new U.S. passports, some medical cards, a growing number of credit and debit cards and so on. More than two billion of them were sold in 2007.

Whether active, semi-passive or passive, these “transponder chips,” as they’re sometimes called, can be accessed or activated with “readers” that can pick up the unique signal given off by each chip and glean information from it on the identity and whereabouts of the product or person, depending on design and circumstances, as Redmond explained in a little-publicized lecture in Canada last year. AFP just obtained a DVD of his talk.

Noted “Spychips” expert, author and radio host Katherine Albrecht told AMERICAN FREE PRESS that while she’s not totally sure whether there is a rock-solid RFID-DTV link, “The purpose of the switch [to digital] was to free up bandwidth. It’s a pretty wide band, so freeing that up creates a huge swath of frequencies.”

As is generally known, the active chips have an internal power source and antenna; these particular chips emit a constant signal. “This allows the tag to send signals back to the reader, so if I have a RFID chip on me and it has a battery, I can just send a signal to a reader wherever it is,” Redmond stated in the recent lecture, given to the Catholic patriot group known as the Pilgrims of Saint Michael, which also is known for advocating social credit, a dramatic monetary reform plan to end the practice of national governments bringing money into existence by borrowing it, with interest, from private central banks. The group’s publication The Michael Journal advocates having national governments create their own money interest-free. It also covers the RFID issue.

“The increased use of RFID chips is going to require the increased use of the UBF [UHF] spectrum,” Redmond said, hitting on his essential point that TV is going digital for a much different reason than the average person assumes, “They are going to stop using the [UHF] and VHF frequencies in 2009. Everything is going to go digital (in the U.S.). Canada is going to do the same thing.”

Explaining the unsettling crux of the matter, he continued: “The reason they are doing this is that the [UHF-VHF] analog frequencies are being used for the chips. They do not want to overload the chips with television signals, so the chips’ signals are going to be taking those [analog] frequencies. They plan to sell the frequencies to private companies and other groups who will use them to monitor the chips.”

Albrecht responded to that quote only by saying that it sounds plausible, since she knows some chips will indeed operate in the UHF-VHF ranges.

“Well over a million pets have been chipped,” Redmond said, adding that all 31,000 police officers in London have in some manner been chipped as well, much to the consternation of some who want that morning donut without being tracked. London also can link a RFID chip in a public transportation pass with the customer’s name. “Where is John Smith? Oh, he is on subway car 32,” Redmond said.

He added that chips for following automobile drivers – while the concept is being fought by several states in the U.S. which do not want nationalized, trackable driver’s licenses (Real ID ) – is apparently a slam dunk in Canada, where license plates have quietly been chipped. Such identification tags can contain work history, education, religion, ethnicity, reproductive history and much more.

Farm animals are increasingly being chipped; furthermore, “Some 800 hospitals in the U.S. are now chipping their patients; you can turn it down, but it’s available,” he said, adding: “Four hospitals in Puerto Rico have put them in the arms of Alzheimer’s patients, and it only costs about $200 per person.”

VeriChip, a major chip maker (the devices sometimes also are called Spychips) describes its product on its website: “About twice the length of a grain of rice, the device is typically implanted above the triceps area of an individual’s right arm. Once scanned at the proper frequency, the VeriChip responds with a unique 16 digit number which could be then linked with information about the user held on a database for identity verification, medical records access and other uses. The insertion procedure is performed under local anesthetic in a physician’s office and once inserted, is invisible to the naked eye. As an implanted device used for identification by a third party, it has generated controversy and debate.”

The circles will keep widening, Redmond predicts. Chipping children “to be able to protect them,” Redmond said, “is being promoted in the media.” After that, he believes it will come to: chip the military, chip welfare cheats, chip criminals, chip workers who are goofing off, chip pensioners – and then chip everyone else under whatever rationale is cited by government and highly-protected corporations that stand to make billions of dollars from this technology. Meanwhile, the concept is marketed by a corporate media that, far from being a watchdog of the surveillance state, is part of it, much like the media give free publicity to human vaccination programs without critical analysis on possible dangers and side effects of the vaccines.

“That’s the first time I have heard of it,” a Federal Communications Commission official claimed, when AFP asked him about the RFID-DTV issue on June 2. Preferring anonymity, he added: “I am not at all aware of that being a cause (of going to DTV).”

“Nigel Gilbert of the Royal Academy of Engineering said that by 2011 you should be able to go on Google and find out where someone is at anytime from chips on clothing, in cars, in cellphones and inside many people themselves,” Redmond also said.

To read Redmond’s full lecture, go to this online link:

Full Lecture – Click Here

http://dprogram.net/2009/07/12/ex-ibm-employee-reveals-tv-abandoned-analog-band-to-make-room-for-rfid-chips/

What is your religion? A blog discussion shared...

2009-06-25T09:28:00.000-07:00

“Religions with no Scriptural foundation fool the masses, because the masses won't study the word of our creator to get the truth from him for themselves. This is why the savior calls us out of all religion, so that we might know Him personally for ourselves. Religion all has its base in man – and in Luciferic arcane, esoteric knowledge.”

This may come as a surprise and offend, but most all church organizations function on the basis of the roman catholic church; whether by its traditions, format of service, hymns, laity, administration, domination, supposed hierarchy, doctrine. All of them have booklets, bibles, literature to provide you a means of proof texting to their way of thinking.

The church organization is no place to raise your children. Raise them at home, teach them, read with them, pray with them. We might even learn something ourselves. We might even develop a closer relationship with them and our Creator. Don't rely on a social scene to mold your child.

Don't be lazy, search out the Creator and Savior for yourself. Be personally responsible. Love your enemies, pray for those who use you. Your mind will clear from all the rhetoric.

Reader 1 reply:
That's why I always say that Christ came to save us from religion; not start a new one.

Reader 2 reply :
Not surprised nor offended. Thank you for your inspirational thoughts.

Reader 3 reply:
thanks! I think after the various splits it really hit home, and this way of thinking made much more sense to me and my family at least.

Reader 4 reply:
Love your thinking, BUT... :-)

Wouldn't you agree that there is SOME value to corporate worship? No, it shouldn't be the target of our lives, but I think David was on to something when he said that he was glad to go to the Lord's house.

Yes, our spiritual lives can stagnate when we get comfortable in a church where we like the people, our kids have friends, we like the music, etc. All of those things are good - don't get me wrong - but if we ignore a close relationship with our Father and Brother because we are just having a good time socializing, then we've gone off track. Still, I don't recommend throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I go to a variety of churches. Sometimes I go to a church purely for the worship experience. Sometimes I go to a church to learn from men who are smarter than I am. Sometimes I go to a church because my children will enjoy others their age. Many times I go to church primarily to encourage and lift-up as many people as I can.

Author reply to Reader 4:
Gotcha...not saying don't go. That would be quite hypocritical to say that I or any of us are above it. Just saying there are better options, better matters to focus on and not to fool ourselves into thinking that church-going is THE path. I won't say I've gone full circle, since I don't know what full circle is for me yet, but I understand the problem of being left to myself and the danger of trailing off due to my own weaknesses. Sometimes, many times, most times, we need each other to help us, pick us up, encourage…love. But then again, a church service isn’t the only place it, if it even does, happens.

I appreciate you Reader 4.

And to add…rather than just saying I go to church each week, keep a Sabbath, observe special observances, I’d rather be able to say that I help people. I’d rather be known for that. I’d rather experience firsthand the beauty of giving directly to a need. We rob ourselves spiritually when we throw money to someone to do a work that we ourselves should.

Ready 4 reply:
Amen, brother.

Matt. 25:31-46 shows eternal life depends on loving others.

Gal. 5:14 "The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

I understand what you are saying and I agree. For years I thought my spiritual obligation was simply punching my timecard at church each week for two hours, attending special observances, avoiding certain foods, etc. I had no idea how far I was missing the mark.

So now, I try to make a positive impact on others' lives. Give water to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick, post incredible wisdom. :-)

I appreciate you too. I admire the sacrifices you make on behalf on our Lord. Keep it up!

Reader 5 reply:
A reporter floating at sea approached a deserted island. From a distance, he could see a lone man and three huts on the island.

When he arrived at shore, he asked the lone inhabitant, "I realize that the middle hut is your home, but what are the other two huts for?

The man on the island said, "the hut on the left is the church I attend...and the hut on the right is the church I used to attend.

Reader 6 reply:
"We rob ourselves spiritually when we throw money to someone to do a work that we ourselves should"

Very true.

I would add something to this thought. It is not just a matter of money. Our presence is a way to support a cause. Sitting on a hall listening to a mediocre sermon, even though we don´t want to give money to them is a way to waste our precious time that could be spent on the real issues, such as visiting orphans, widows, the sick and in need, etc.

I guess some people insist on going just to fellowship, that´s fine, but not the best way to celebrate the Sabbath rest on a weekly basis.

I have learned that we meet with others that think like us, walk as one with the Spirit that binds us together and helps sharpening each other, prophecy to each other, comfort each other, love each other, etc.

Organized religious groups do not provide that because God is not inside organized religion as a rule, on the contrary, he shook the comfort zone and does not want that easy warming chair system, or money throwing system.

I am certain he wants to test our hearts now and create a real living spiritual friendship and relationship with each of us on a one on one basis. That would be step 1 of attaching us strongly to the trunk.

Then we will be ready to create a relationship with Him as a Church, as The Church and bride. That would be step 2, when we are all attached to the trunk.

Anyway, throwing money to any human ministry or human cause sounds repulsive to me. To print hymnals, to print bibles, to print magazines, aarrggg....

But if I see someone doing the right thing, feeding the needy, taking care of the sick, adopting kids, taking care of the environment, etc, etc.. that makes me smile and reminds me that we don´t need to suffer, we just need to continue doing the right thing in silence.

Have a good sabbath, and may God be with you and your family tonight and tomorrow...

Author reply to Reader 4:
One thing I read of what you wrote and wanted to comment on, but forgot...

You mentioned that about David going to the Lord's house...

And I say absolutely. But don't we understand that that house today is us individually? We are the temple. His Spirit resides in us. The veil is torn. Yes?

Reader 5 reply:
I see your point. But my experience is that, whether or not people are going to serve the widows and orphans has little to do with what they do on the sabbath. Whether they meet in a small group or a big group, the temptation to withdraw is the same. I would say that big groups offer more opportunity for serving widows in that they are readily available. But again, it is probably the same small percentage in the big groups as in the small ones that go out of their way to serve.

Reader 7 reply:
Interesting insight to ponder.

Author reply to reader 5:
What is that saying...

5% of the people do 95% of the work...

Author comment:
I recall very well being one of those individuals that would ridicule and judge someone for saying, "I feel like that I should just live a good life, being an example to others, helping." I remember vividly the self righteous mindset I had due to them trying to justify not focusing on church attendance. As you can imagine, I'm ashamed of that and have recanted.

Anecdote: Someone just brought to my attention of how ministers continue to receive recognition for years of service to a church. No harm. But I compare that to the recognition that the apostles received in having their heads decapitated. Quite a contrast. We really don't know what persecution is...yet.

Reader 8 reply:
thx for posting this. Not sure why but the Spirit spoke through your message. Yeah, that sounds all sanctimonious by our upbringing (it was my upbringing to deny that voice in a lot of ways and only at 40-something does it "speak" ... when I listen).

>>The church organization is no place to raise your children. Raise them at home, teach them, read with them, pray with them. We might even learn something ourselves. We might even develop a closer relationship with them and our Creator. Don't rely on a social scene to mold your child<<

Until about a month ago I faithfully attended a small offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot. I don't know what finally broke but it just became clear that the ritual of church was nothing to me. Work is part of it. I have a "great job" by worldly standards but it's so unbelievably empty of meaning I cannot describe it. When I looked for meaning in "church", as good as it is, it's just not THERE either. You're right. Deut 6:7 is about time and the only time I have is... the Sabbath. If we run around and get all churchy on Sabbath but neglect this *time* with our children, our allotment of that time is pretty worthless. Granted, I could get a lot more efficient in our Sabbath ritual and get the kids in line but, it "feels like" a bit of catch 22. We've been so caught up in Sabbath ritual that I'm not sure our 13 year old knows *WHY*.

k. probably TMI at this point. would enjoy hearing your thoughts and the journey that led to your post.

tx again for going public.

Reader 9 reply:
I've read all your posts carefully, twice. I understand where you get a lot of your animosity towards churches, we went to the same one for years. That was a cult not a religion, and the wounds to the heart lasted awhile. That being said not all churches are merely organized religion, our congregation for instance is very disorganized, no magazines, no hymnals, etc. But no Bibles? surely you mean the Catholic version, or something similar like the book of the Mormon and so on, otherwise how does one study the word?

Back to the our unorganized congregation, kind of a fly by the seat of your pants day at church, fun inspirational and a great way to get away from the world without hiding in our homes, together rejoicing in the Love of the Lord and the Grace of Jesus Christ. Our "services" are never really done the same way twice, this due to individual participation, we are extremely interactive. All in all its a tool if you will, just like the small group we started…

Like the various ministries we are a part of, some of them we started ourselves, some others have started. Our congregation is dedicated to helping others, and for some getting involved with helping those in need is difficult on they're own, not everyone is strong socially. As a congregation we function as a large family (mind you at best there is only 60 of us) not only to each other but to the community at large. I agree the spirit resides in all of us, just as it did the apostles, who traveled the world setting up...churches? There truly is a need for churches, not to say that this negates your need to strengthen, individually, your relationship with Christ, but a church is an extremely useful tool for teaching, learning, loving, and sharing. Money, donations, even tithe (if one should choose to do so), if squandered, or misused, sure that’s a waste. But without church funds some of the truly important ministries would be hard to maintain, if possible at all.

We no longer have a single minister, and after Mr. B retires next year, we no longer pay them. The people who speak on a regular basis do so because they are "lead" to do so, called to be shepherds so to speak. I truly believe that God always intended us to gather in his name, After all it was Christ who said "Wherever two or more of you gather in my name I will be there" I'm not shunning the importance of the personal walk with Christ, But he is calling us to help bring all of mankind closer to him and to each other. Love and God bless!

Reader 10 reply:
Go a step further and study the history, even the bible in its current form was put together by catholic/orthodox founders c 300-400 a.d., from texts that predate christianity by up to 10,000 - 18,000 years. Those orthodox founders bragged in letters to their friends about their modifications and copious additions and omissions made of the texts. The stories that the catholics said are 2000 years old are actually thousands of years old.

Reader 5 reply:
Did I just wake up in the twilight zone?

Reader 11 comment:
I've been following this thread as well and I gotta side with Reader 9 here.
It's all well and good to learn and study on your own but at some point, it seems that most solo-tyerians (or whatever you'd call someone that claims Christianity but eschews a weekly gathering) feel a burning urge to find someone like-minded at talk about it eventually - like online.

How does that address the spiritual health of the elderly or the growth of children? In addition, a weekly meeting provides service opportunities for those that need them to remain focused. Sorry, but my level of ADD is such that if I don't have a regular responsibility to focus on (like worship leading) I will drift.

Finally, the solo-tyerian philosophy has a tendency to trend its practitioners towards the 'all Christians are equal but I'm a little more equal than you', IMHO. I had enough of that attitude back in the day.

Author reply to readers 9 and 11:
Everyone, including myself, wants to, needs to believe that their belief system is intact and that we're all going about things the "right" way...otherwise what do we have, right?

Guys, thanks for chiming in. I think if you reread, I'm not calling a convocation evil. On the contrary, it's vital. I'm just calling attention to matters of concern. Our views of religion and how to worship are so tainted by peripheral paradigms. If we just put ourselves in the scriptures, we’d get a different read.

It’s interesting when one is asked what is your religion and our culture dictates it to be answered with denomination or belief system and not how we live our lives or where our true devotion is. And yet true religion is to tend to others. We realize we don’t need to form a committee to do this right?

Author reply to reader 9:
I can't really say that I have "animosity" towards a former way of churching. Maybe more of an urgency now to be personally responsible. Not wait for a group to be formed and someone to tell me how we're going to go about helping someone. Or to tell me, "this is who God is.” Granted, we need help, and what better way to exemplify His way than to help each other.

I’m not expecting to rock anybody’s world with this, but then again, I firmly believe in “they who have ears, let them hear.” I’m not one to sit by when something is put upon me.

This sort of thing is not generally well received when it disturbs a way of thinking. Particularly when that way of thinking has been our whole life up to now.

Reader 2 comment:
I have enjoyed reading the many comments on this thread. Of particular interest is Reader 10’s comment regarding catholic/orthodox founders' involvement in religion, as it relates to the author’s original post and is worth consideration. As for me, I think of myself a nomadic fellowshipper. I enjoy and am thankful for friends and family who worship in various ways and sizes of groups... and the opportunity to join them at my choosing.

Author reply:
Reader 2, I share in that sentiment. I find that it's not healthy for me to get too comfortable in any single assembly. In many cases, we're looking for someone to stand up and lead or others jockeying for position. And we can fool ourselves sometimes thinking that it's for the good. Our views of spiritual leaders can truly tainted by today's measurements. We, the body of believers are either lifting them up, or they are demanding it from the fellowship, or both.

Reader 12 reply:
I wish to address the comments of Reader 10 regarding the validity of the Bible itself. There is a great amount of evidence that shows the Bible we have today is as original and true to the most recent manuscripts. Consider the Dead Sea Scrolls for instance. In this discovery alone they found a complete manuscript of the book of Isaiah. This was dated to 100 BCE. We also have a fragment of the book of John that dates to 125 AD. When you compare the number of manuscripts or partial manuscripts in existence and compare their dates to the original date of writing and then compare all that to other works by Plato and such it is not even comparable. There is so much more documentation and evidence for the Biblical record.
The other thing is that translations are not done off of a copy of a copy of a copy. Most all of the translations go back to the most original manuscripts available. If you want to just talk manuscript evidence the evidence for the Bible beats everything hands down.

As far as the letters from church fathers, I would like to see how hard evidence of this and then find out what real scholars say about this. Conspiracy theories are always there to throw doubt onto God's word but I know those words to be true and full of life.

Reader 11 reply:
Reader 2, I appreciate your comments. 'Nomadic fellowshipper' actually has a nice ring to it. Your last line is particularly appreciated. As one who does participate in leadership and more substantially in our church's praise and worship services, I can tell you that while it takes effort and time, it is time well spent. I get a great deal of spiritual strength/focus through the efforts I put into service - that others find those efforts beneficial is almost a by-product. We have 'nomads' that sometimes drift in and out of our services and I think that's cool - a service planned for 50 might as well feed 51 or 101. I don't look down at someone that chooses to walk alone. I think the body of Christ has many aspects - each performs it's own function, but they all work to the same goal.

Thanks for hosting this discussion. I'm off on vacation next week so I'll probably be too late to jump in on any subsequent threads. Be well.

Reader 1 comments:
My wife and I have been around the block a few times now. When we fled one church we tried its offshoot and saw what that was about at the infamous meeting. We then attended fairly regular. We helped to build the building when it was offshoot controlled and helped to finish it when it passed control until some Sabbath related issues came up. It all seems silly now. We visited home groups. We hung out with the Messianics for awhile and watch quite a few of them renounce Christ. We have met with "audio tape home churches". By merit of being the son of a member, I even got to see another group from the inside before its satanic decree went out. Now that we live in New England, we bounce around between home groups and visit the a local assembly occasionally.

One thing that I have consistently noticed is the old adage, "Birds of a feather, flock together."

The problem is not all, but many of those feathers are nothing else than weaknesses, errors and lack of vision from years of baggage manifested in various ways as a result of conditioning (often Pavlovian) by men for years. Most of us are birds of a ruffled feather and our judgment is skewed. The author is correct. While we pointed fingers at the Catholic Church, we sure liked their model of authority and chain of command and thus practiced their model of religion.

Let me back that up.

My son has gone to parochial for the past four years simply because we are better equipped to teach our kids why bowing to crucifixes and depictions of the Virgin Mary is idolatry than to explain to them why it’s not OK for Heather to have two mommies when Heather and her two mommies seem so nice; but that’s another argument for another time. Heather Has Two Mommies is a book title commonly read to primary grade schoolers up here; no offense intended to anyone who happens to bear the name. My point is I have had the opportunity to see firsthand that we were patterned after a Catholic template. Pope=Pastor General, Arch Bishops=Evangelists, Bishops=Regional Pastors, Priests=Ministers all the way down to the laity.

We had obvious differences from the CC to distance ourselves, but that point is even to this day you will find those who claim to have the power to cut you off from your Father in Heaven if your have the audacity to question there wisdom, judgment, or motives. What they fail to see is that we are in a marriage covenant and they themselves say when they officiate a wedding, “What God has bound in Heaven, let no man tear asunder.” Instead, they are of their fathers the Pharisees for whom Christ had these words:

“But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”

The Pharisees who derived there power from Herod who derived his power from Pilot who derived his power from Caesar were granted control of the place of worship and reserved the right to destroy it if offended. That is how the Pharisees erroneously claimed stewardship to the Kingdom’s door.

Today we have 501c3 corporations that derive their so called power to disfellowship you from the Body of Christ from the Governor of their home state who derives his power from the Government of the United States that derives its power from a faceless IRS/Federal Reserve that holds the specter of 501c3 revocation if the registered corporation offends it or any of its subsidiaries. In the end it’s all politics and it’s the politics of the Pharisees that killed Christ.

Some of the worst politics I’ve ever seen were at a private seminary. It used to bother me greatly that politics could be so cut throat at a place where politics didn’t belong. It used to bother me until it occurred to me that all manmade institutions are by nature political. I can’t be helped. That’s what I mean by saying Christ came to save us from religion, not start a new one.

Christ rather told His disciples to go out and be fishers of men. One of those disciples, Philip encountered an Ethiopian reading the Book of Isaiah. I think the story went something like this:

(After having the initial conversation)
And Phillip having perceived this Eunuch had the Spirit potentially working with him gave him literature and tarried with him for six months, and having perceived this man of Ethiopia would not cause dissention, invited the Eunuch to attend church services and tarried with him yet another six months. Perceiving the man of Ethiopia was rich and increased with goods for after all he was born on a cart, Philip determined this man could go far to further the work and expand it into third world countries so he baptized him, trained him in the ways of the ministry and the chain of command; and before disappearing he left him with instructions to stay in contact with headquarters and a five baskets of literature to bring forth a great multitude of coworkers.

If you read the actual scripture, it rather sounds like Philip, doing his job of fisher of men was a catch and release guy, but his handling of the Ethiopian was lousy politics.

I think what is at the heart of the author’s sentiments is while going to church has value, you shouldn’t need it; at least for long. A good minister who should be a big brother sheep while understanding there is but one Shepherd, should not convince you that Christ is a drug and he is the peddler that you have to come back to every week for your fix. All governments including what we called the Government of God on Earth will inevitably seek to make you dependent. That's politics.

The time of the Tabernacle came and went. The time of the physical temple came and went. The time of corporate churches (Just another physical temple to act as a sifter) came and went. Now is the time of the Abrahams. God is raising up folks who like Abraham follow Him because they have faith and love of righteousness. They have searched for Him because they know in the bottom of their gut there is something wrong with our fallen way of existence and they seek Him out directly. When they find Him they have a very special extraordinary relationship with Him. There was no temple for Abraham to go to. There was no minister to call except for Melchizidek, the one who became Christ. Abraham was of the order of Melchizidek and we should be too; not only ministers but every last mother’s son of us.

Does the author hold animus toward corporate churches? No, but after getting over it he has seen the foundational cracks and isn’t going to go in with rose colored glasses to be fooled again.

Is the author coming to see a superior way? Yes.

Does he believe that congregating is bad? No, but watch out for big fish in little ponds that think they own the pond and will seek to expand it.

Does he see a problem with trying to resurrect a system that failed? Yes.

I’ve watched him for a long time and he like me has gone through a lot of trial and error, and a great deal of proving all things to come to a great crossroads in his life. What some may call animosity; I see a next plateau of wisdom; of having the capability to call a spade a spade without animus or resentment. He is one of the most sincere seekers of truth I’ve known. Those two things, animus and resentment will manifest in error, and I perceive that he is walking the walk without the crutch of religion while seeing more clearly than ever.

He is one of the few people I know, and that shamefully excludes myself that actually practices James 1:27. Folks should listen to him.

May the remainder of the Sabbath for all of you be joyous!

Author replies to reader 1:
Well, I'm glad I got that off my chest. :)

Thank you, and I think you understand where I'm driving at, but embarrassingly, I'm shamed by words that I absolutely don't deserve. I appreciate your candor nonetheless.

I want to add a bit to clarify this aspect about the bible, it's authority and the validity of whether we have the whole message intended for us by our Creator, in my opinion.

I believe firmly that societies/cultures of the past, as they do today, dictate what records of history are passed on and unfortunately the very pieces of literature we have today to refute, dispute, condone, confirm history are in and of themselves shaped by those very cultures. We have nothing else...nada...EXCEPT, a more powerful creator and the faith in that Creator to preserve for us just what we need in order to have that relationship with Him. I, undoubtedly believe there are modifications, deletions, additions to the scriptures not to mention the loss of the true meaning of what was written in the translation, especially when there are no unequivocal words in the language it's translated to. Did I say that right?

Anyway, again, if we seek out that relationship, we know we have what we need. But we, being who we are, thrive on knowledge and not simplicity. And of course, our nature is not one that bodes well with that. I mean, to love an enemy, pray for those that use us, visit the sick...how absurd. I’ll let my minister do that. That’s what we pay him for right? I mean who am I to pray over someone....really?

Reader 2 comment:
I love all the thoughtful discourse... Is it time for the pot-luck yet? ;-)

Reader 11 comment:
ROFL! Reader 2, again, I will extend the invite to stop at our Fellowship any time you nomad yourself through Ohio - whether or not you like the message, you'll probably like the people ... and the snack table. The music ... well, maybe you'll catch us on a good week.

As to the preceding commentary, I stand by my first post and would like to point out the multi-layered missive above as proof of my last point in that comment.

Hard as it may be for many to believe, I actually did attend that seminary - somewhat before the author, perhaps before reader 1. Before that I went several years to summer camp when there was only one. In both places, I learned that what is organized and led by man invariably at some points shows all of man's flaws. Still, Christ directed his disciples to lead people to Him. Go into the world and teach, I believe it said. Some learn just fine on their own - have the iron will and intellect to find their own path. Great! More power to them!

What about the rest of us? Those whose gifts are not as well rounded as yours? Who appreciate someone gifted in more scholarly pursuits than ourselves that brings something new to the table. I agree that blindly following a man (or man's organization) is foolhardy. I enjoy healthy discourse, I enjoy hearing points of view or ideas that I have not considered and I enjoy following up by reading the Bible and making my own determination of what I think of them.

The other point is this: What of Worship leaders, Youth pastors, those who set up, or who provide food for the fellowship table. Are you saying that there is no value to service or are you suggesting that every one of those people are doing it for their own self-aggrandizement?

Again, I'm not suggesting that anyone is any less of a Christian for not attending church. I object to the suggestion that those that do are somehow unenlightened hicks that just don't know any better. Now I'm really on vacation.

Author replies to reader 11:
Whether you catch this before vacation or not, I must say that it seems that you may be putting words in other's mouth. What you describe is a bit insensitive to impute those motives of thought.

I will say this, what you first stated about appreciating a scholarly view...therein could lie a bit of the folly that we all corner ourselves into and then excuse ourselves from the responsibility of study. Nobody needs to be a scholar to be at one with our Creator. We know that. He chose the weak and foolish. And trust me, I’m there, at the weak and foolish dept that is.

Bottom line...we’re all going to do what we need to do, or at least think we need to do, or, event yet, pick the path of least resistance. I’m merely drawing attention to an observation that I have firsthand experienced in my own life. I can’t speak, nor do I want to pretend to speak to what others must do. Albeit, that point may be debated in the way I so emphatically started this thread. Call it admonition. 

Author replies to reader 11 continued:
"unenlightened hicks" - interesting term since that is what someone else in your city used when I was trying to warn of a particular pastor's shenanigans. The person literally told me they didn't want to be "enlightened." Unfortunate that we stay locked in a paradigm based on our own pride. Not saying that's the case for you. But I'll admit to having such stubbornness...still do. I get locked into a mode of thinking and it’s like pulling teeth to change it. Usually takes a train wreck to see something different.

Let me emphatically say, I am not against people going to church. It’s all about perspective. And since I grew up in the atmosphere I did, I think I have a little perspective, good and bad, along with everyone else. Certainly not superior.

It’s our nature to protect and defend our paradigm, if we don’t, then we have to ask why are we allowing that paradigm to continue.

Reader 13 reply:
I find the above thread very interesting, because it ties in with a stage of life I'm currently in. I've actually been seeing a professional counselor the past few months to deal w/ some of the things I went through growing up in said church organization & going to the same seminary. I know experiences can differ by what church area you attended, but the one I attended had some traumatic effects I've never dealt with.

I've visited a variety of different denominations over the years - from very conservative to more pentecostal. For 4 years, Larry and I attended a Mexican Baptist church. Now, we currently attend a progressive Mennonite church. I've found that I've become comfortable in a variety of settings because I've come to see "church" as the whole body of Christ, which transcends buildings, walls, doctrines and denominations.

While I do believe fellowship is an important part of Christian growth and participation, I did not come to know Jesus or the Holy Spirit from within the walls of an organized church. It took me removing myself from the structure for awhile to get my head together. Then, I rejoined the more organized aspects of the church.

However, this summer, after talking to my counselor and pastor, I've decided I need to "take time off" from the organized church, again, b/c the institutionalized aspect of it is hard for me to deal with at the moment while I'm dealing with things from my past. I told my pastor this, and he's very supportive. But, he said something I never thought of before, and it really helped me to see "church" from a different viewpoint. He said, "the organized church is one avenue people choose to 'express' their worship and faith." From that angle, I could relate to those who do enjoy having a more structured environment in which to worship. I'll eventually join that structure again, while at the same time knowing it's not the structure or how well I fit into it that determines whether I am a follower of Christ.

We all go through seasons, and many of us have had to go through or are going through some seasons of intense reflection and healing. But, such is the beauty of belonging to Christ and being a part of His Body ... through His love, mercy and grace, we are afforded the time and circumstances we individually need to realize that healing and, eventually, be made perfect by a gentle, patient and good King, Savior, Lord, Master, High Priest, Bridegroom, Best Friend, etc. who has all the time in the universe.

A book I found really helpful was, "The Shack." The way God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are portrayed in that book is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I hope to relate to.

Thanks for starting this thread. The Lord's blessings to you and everyone else here as you all continue through your own journeys.

Reader 14 comment:
wow. Other than that, all I can say is that I am thinking of James 1:23-27.
Thanks for the great discussion stimulus!

Reader 15 comment:
Hold on -- what's wrong with the Catholic Church? :)

As a Catholic convert, allow me to point out that the person who accepts Holy Scripture in all its books as God-breathed is following Tradition. The Church wrote, preserved, and defined the canon of Scripture. As is often said, the Bible didn't float down from heaven intact, and it doesn't come with an inspired Table of Contents. It was handed down to us by the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. If we hold dear our books of the Bible as inspired and inerrant (as we should), then it's not unreasonable to consider other things the Church hands down to us.

Reader 9 comment:
Even though it seems that being long winded is accepted on this thread this time around I will attempt to be brief (I tend to yammer a bit, apologies). Take the essence of Readers 13, 2, 5, 11, and a splash of 12 and my first post and you have my ideal walk with Christ. Ever changing yet stable and secure. No one way will give you all the answers unless that way is Christ, and I agree one hundred percent the Lord has all the power and will never lead astray. I also agree that the only sure thing with man is he is flawed (am I ever). In defense of Reader 11 he was merely asking questions not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth, his reaction slightly mirrored my own in regards to Reader 1’s post, which was less of a discussion and more of a baseball bat in word form. I understand how you can get worked up when your excited, but I still found myself also jumping to the defense...again I apologize(Man, flawed :) ) Thanks for the discussion my friend! The Shack was a great book!

Author reply to Readers 15 and 13:
In regards to the CC, you make my case in point. :)

Thank you. You well know my thoughts are not intent to make enemies or offend.

One thought regarding "the Shack". I've heard many make reference to it and described some of its content and approach. Having not read it, and at this point, no intent to, I can't really speak to it. However, I would use caution in taking literally what someone does in creating a fictional depiction of our Creator all in the word of defining Him better for us to understand. I mean, we were just talking about unenlightened. Do we not see the admission of being unenlightened by going to such a resource to help us better understand our Creator. I can think of nobody better to go to than “the One” to know Him better. Did I hear correctly that the Shack refers to the Creator in the form of a motherly black woman? Don’t throw stones...yet. I’m just trying to understand the reasoning.

Author comment:
For the record, I'm not really an advocate for the term enlightened, at least in the sense of the state one can be in. Enlightened to me means one who has knowledge, and that can be anything, good or bad, usually bad.

I'd rather be in a state of walking with our Creator and to whatever end of good that I exude, I credit it to the Holy Spirit speaking or doing through me. I’m certainly not saying there’s good being exuded, trust me. I say IF. Otherwise, I’m rotten to the core and am a true example of one absolutely needing and relying on His grace. I take Him at His word when he says “he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.” I’m going to need it. But don’t misunderstand, that’s not my motive. We’re all trying to change. Which leads me to my next “note”.

Reader 9 reply:
" The Shack" truly is a fictional book, one persons view of what they believe the message of Christ to be. At one point yes, a motherly black woman (among others), more I believe the authors expression that the Lord could appear to be whomever or whatever he wanted to be, As Paul said "I will be everything to everyone". The story is simply the authors expression of Christ's sacrifice for us, and Gods unconditional love towards us, not an attempt to define our creator. It is a wonderful story. I also enjoyed the "Left Behind Series", but in no way do I feel it to be an accurate description of the time to come, only an entertaining story. But even fiction can stimulate positive thought, such as patience, forgiveness, and compassion, by merely seeing things from another point of view. For one to even buy these books they have to go to fiction, If taken literally perhaps the issue isn't with the writer(not to say in some cases it is) but possibly the reader. I just happen to like to read.

Reader 13 reply:
I think the author wrote The Shack for his children - as a way to present his faith to them in a story form. I think what is so intriguing about it is that it shows God in trinity relating to the main character, Mack, in unconventional ways we wouldn't necessarily envision - getting down on a human level where Mack can relate to each of them. It brings out more of the long-suffering, grace and love-oriented aspects of God as He is working with Mack, who is in the midst of a faith crisis due to a family tragedy. And, God the Father appears, at first, to Mack as a motherly black woman b/c of Mack's past with his human father (something dealt with later in the book). There's one line in it I really love. In a nutshell, Mack asks Jesus if all roads lead to him. He says they do not and that most roads don't lead anywhere, but then He says, “What it does mean is that I will travel any road to find you.” Reminds me of the Lord leaving the 99 to go after the 1 lost lamb.

Author comment:
One potentially final remark...

May I suggest your religion be about what you do personally rather than where and how often you go to church?

Easter Sunday? - Timing of the Resurrection

2009-03-24T11:47:00.000-07:00

Reader writes:

I just started reading the article Passover/Easter, and I found the part where it mentioned:

He went into the grave just before sunset. At sunset a High Shabbat began—the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Seventy two hours later, just before sunset on Shabbat night, He arose from the dead—72 hours later!

The above statement is incorrect. In the Holy Bible, the Scripture says:

Mat 28:1 Now after the Sabbath, toward dawn on the first day of the week,1 Miryam from Mag¯dala and the other Miryam came to see the tomb. Footnote:1See Explanatory notes - First Day of the Week. Also Luke 24:1 and John 20:1.

LDL.net reply:

Here is Yedidah's response to your note:

Before sunset on the first day of the week in Hebrew context, since His days begin at sunset from creation, is Saturday night. "Towards dawn" the women came. Because they would not have come at night to put the spices on the body, they came at dawn...the first chance they got. But, His resurrection was at sunset, because He was in the grave 72 hours -- to fulfill the prophecy of Jonah...3 days and 3 nights...from Wed. night to Saturday night.

I will provide a little more:

This is a common doctrine that is taught in mainstream christianity that tries to justify a Sunday morning observance of Christ's resurrection. First of all, there absolutely is significance in his resurrection, however, according to scripture, there is no hint of us being commanded to observe it. On the contrary, in Lev. 23, it is outlined all the days that we should observe.

Now to answer your direct point on the timing, you will see in scripture that the pharisees were adamant about having him buried before sunset, or the coming feast day, which was the first day of unleavened bread. They did not want to bury him on a Holy Day, Mark 16:9. It is believed that he was buried before sunset on a Wednesday evening before sunset, thus, if he is actually to be in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights proper, then he would have been resurrected before sunset on the Saturday evening. There are also beliefs that he died and was buried on the Thursday.

Also, your point you make regarding them going to the tomb to find him gone on Sunday morning provides no proof of when he had risen. He could have easily been gone the night before and the circumstances would still be the same the next morning.

If your point is to prove an Easter observance, the reasoning may be faulty. We seriously need to be lead by the scriptures alone without being influenced, or led astray by popular teaching.

Despite what day of the week it was, we do know that he died and was buried on the 14th day of the first month of the original calendar and the most important point remains is that we are not commanded to observe his resurrection, but to memorialize his death which covers our sins. Anything outside of that is man-made.

But believe when I say, I will stand corrected if proven otherwise.

Reader reply:

I forgot to make it clear that I don't observe Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving and such. My request for clarification on the subject was sincerily to find out more/ understand more. Though my email was short and seem 'harsh'? forgive me if it sounded 'hars'. English is not my mother tounge.

After I sent the email to you, I also looked for another explanation on the same subject with other online ministry, just to get more insight (and I always re-check against the Word of Yahweh).

I'm admit that I was merely misunderstood it. Your explanation is correct.

A little suggestion if I may, please add your explanation below to the article, so that other readers (whom happen to be like my self ) will not misunderstand it.
Thank you for your time to answer my question.

May the grace and peace of our Father and Savior Yahushua Ha Mashiach be with us all.

The Whole Law?

2009-03-24T10:04:00.000-07:00

Reader writes:

I have been reading some of your articles and I will continue reading with the other articles.

I would like to ask you (so far, I could not find it in any of your articles, if you have written about this) since we are to obey commandment of our Father Yahweh (TORAH), there are some commandments which I want to know from your prayerful study in His Word, if it still apply for us today. If you have articles about what I'm going to ask you, please point it out to me. Otherwise help me please by answering the following:

1. For example, do not destroy the corner of the beard (for men) Lev 19:27
2. Also for women who gave birth, that they are unclean for certain length of time and should not touch anything set-apart Lev 12:2-8
3. Lepers were unclean and not to be touched. But Yahushua touched and healed a leper. Do you have any explanation about this one? whether the law of not touching leper is still apply for us today or that Yahushua done away with this law.
4. How about the Tassels?
5. Headcovering for women?

Thank you for your time. May Father Yahweh bless you and your work for His kingdom abundantly

LDL.net reply:

You ask some questions that seem to be on a lot of people's minds these days, especially those who are searching for truth and wanting to please our Creator. I want to first say that the articles that you're reading are what the Father has inspired a good friend of mine, Yedidah, to write. I host the website and have published the intent and purpose for it, but otherwise, I respond to inquiries as the Father directs me to do.

As for your questions, I will give more thought and detail at a later time, but wanted to say quickly that I feel that whole bible was written for our admonition and instruction. However, we must understand that Yashuah came and magnified the law. That is to say that he made it more plain for us to see and understand and how it applies to our lives.

It is believed by rabbinical thought that there are 613 laws in Torah. This number is man-made contrived. This is not to say that we don't adhere to the supposed 613. What I'm saying is that I believe we're to live by everything in scripture that could possibly apply to us. For instance, we know that, if you're a woman, the instruction of not destroying the corner of your beard could not possibly apply to you, and so on.

There are many aspects of the questions you ask that we all continue to seek answers to. What is most important is that we develop a strong relationship with our Creator and Savior, and what will follow is a longing for their will in our lives, thus being revealed to us what we must live by.

I hope to follow up some more thoughts on this subject. But wanted to get something to you soon so you are not waiting for a reply.

Yedidah's reply:

Here is what I learned from our Father about her questions. Out of the 613 commands of our Father, many are directed towards the priests and the High Priest, regarding different groups, such as men, women and children separately. Some are regarding marriage, some regarding sexual perimeters, and some of them do not apply to us at all. We do not have to take a shovel into the field to bury our feces. Aren't we glad for that. Women now have provision for their time of the month problems... and do not need to stay at home because they might drop something on the ground that is forbidden.

But, back in around 2002, I was in Texas teaching, and a man asked the same questions. I didn't have a total answer for him, but told him we did have
to keep the commandments that pertained to us, which we could keep--like Shabbat, the Festivals, the dietary laws, and laws of purity and set-apartness, how to love one's neighbor and how to love Elohim. About two years later, I was on a plane from Amsterdam to Memphis, and I was trying to sleep, but it wasn't working. All of a sudden that scene flashed before my eyes of sitting there at 2:00AM trying to answer that question. Father began showing me the answer. We all were raised to pray "the Lord's prayer"...at least in Christianity. "Our Father, Who art in heaven ... THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN". His will in heaven and earth is Torah. We do not have a Cohen ha Gadal in Person, nor a Temple now, but we do have a High Priest and a Temple in heaven. So, in asking for His will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven...we are petitioning the High Priest to take action in our situation as He would do if He was on earth. This is the answer I want to pass on and others who do want to obey Him. We must obey what we can. If there is no chance of doing what we can at this time, then we turn it over to the High Priest Yahushua, and let Him do whatever He wants in our case. This answer from Him gave me peace.

If anyone has any input to these or any other topics or questions on laydownlife.net, please, don't hesitate to write. We realize we are not the final answer to any matter and don't want to pretend to be. All matters should be measured, judged and sought after from the Holy Spirit of our Creator.

THE CHURCH WALKING WITH THE WORLD

2009-02-25T13:02:00.000-08:00

By Matilda C. Edwards, About 1890

The Church and the World walked far apart
On the changing shores of time,
The World was singing a giddy song,
And the Church a hymn sublime.
"Come give me your hand," said the merry
World, "And walk with me this way!"
But the good Church hid her snowy hands
And solemnly answered "Nay,
I will not give you my hand at all,
And I will not walk with you;
Your way is the way that leads to death;
Your words are all untrue."

"Nay, walk with me but a little space,"
Said the World with a kindly air;
"The road I walk is a pleasant road,
And the sun shines always there;
Your path is thorny and rough and rude,
But mine is broad and plain;
My way is paved with flowers and dews,
And yours with tears and pain;
The sky to me is always blue,
No want, no toil I know;
The sky above you is always dark,
Your lot is a lot of woe;
There's room enough for you and me
To travel side by side."

Half shyly the Church approached the World
And gave him her hand of snow;
And the old World grasped it and walked along,
Saying, in accents low,
"Your dress is too simple to please my taste;
I will give you pearls to wear,
Rich velvets and silks for your graceful form,
And diamonds to deck your hair."
The Church looked down at her plain white robes,
And then at the dazzling World,
And blushed as she saw his handsome lip
With a smile contemptuous curled.
"I will change my dress for a costlier one,"

"Said the Church, with a smile of grace;
Then her pure white garments drifted away,
And the World gave, in their place,
Beautiful satins and shining silks,
Roses and gems and costly pearls;
While over her forehead her bright hair fell
Crisped in a thousand curls.

"Your house is too plain," said the proud old World,
"I'll build you one like mine;
With walls of marble and towers of gold,
And furniture ever so fine."
So he built her a costly and beautiful house;
Most splendid it was to behold;
Her sons and her daughters dwelt there
Gleaming in purple and gold;
Rich fairs and shows in the halls were held,
And the World and his children were there.
Laughter and music and feasts were heard
In the place that was meant for prayer.
There were cushioned seats for the rich and gay,
To sit in their pomp and pride;
But the poor who were clad in shabby array,
Sat meekly down outside.
"You give too much to the poor," said the World.
"Far more than you ought to do;
If they are in need of shelter and food,
Why need it trouble you?
Go, take your money and buy rich robes,
Buy horses and carriages fine;
Buy pearls and jewels and dainty food,
Buy the rarest and costliest wine;
My children they dote on these things,
And if you their love would win
You must do as they do, and walk in the ways
That they are walking in."
So the poor were turned from her door in scorn,
And she heard not an orphan's cry;
But she drew her beautiful robes aside,
As the widows went weeping by.

Then the sons of the World and Sons of the Church
Walked closely hand and heart,
And only the Master, who knoweth all,
Could tell the two apart.
Then the Church sat down at her ease, and said,
"I am rich and my goods increase;
I have need of nothing, or aught to do,
But to laugh, and dance, and feast."
The shy World heard, and he laughed in his sleeve,
And mockingly said, aside-
"The Church is fallen, the beautiful Church;
And her shame is her boast and her pride."

The angel drew near to the mercy seat,
And whispered in sighs her name;
Then the loud anthems of rapture were hushed,
And heads were covered with shame;
And a voice was heard at last by the Church
From Him who sat on the throne,
"I know thy works, and how thou hast said,
'I am rich, and hast not known
That thou art naked, poor and blind,
And wretched before my face;'
Therefore from my presence cast I thee out,
And blot thy name from its place."

Making Faraday Cages

2009-01-13T15:12:00.000-08:00

United States Action

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EMP AND FARADAY CAGES
(Photograph courtesy of Miles Stair, http://www.endtimesreport.com/ )
MAKING FARADAY CAGES by Miles Stair
http://www.endtimesreport.com/faraday_cages.html
Miles Stair's Survival Shop
The reality of protecting all electronic equipment against EMP from a nuclear explosion over our shores is becoming imminent. We now live in perilous times.

The information to follow on building "Faraday cages" is timely indeed. A single atmospheric nuclear detonation releases enough electromagnetic pulse (EMP) to equal 100,000 volts per square centimeter on the ground. A single detonation 200 to 400 miles over the center of the continental United States would fry every unprotected computer chip from coast to coast, and from the middle of Canada to the middle of Mexico. And we are now into Solar Cycle 23, with solar flares common and expected to continue until the first of next year. CME's are capable of extreme damage to modern computerized equipment! Sure, we have our windup BayGen radio's and spare lap top computers, but unless electronic equipment is protected from an electromagnetic pulse, they will be fried!

When Einstein and the others first refined and purified uranium, they took time off and studied its properties. That is when they discovered the "rays" that were harmful, as well as the phase transformations. In the course of their work, one of the scientists discovered that simply covering an object with a grounded copper mesh would stop virtually all electromagnetic radiation, whether proton or neutron. Obviously, they had to protect their monitoring equipment! Thus was born the "Faraday cage."

The copper mesh, like 1 inch chicken wire, worked well in large uses, like covering buildings, and it is still in use today: FEMA headquarters buildings are dome-shaped earth-bermed structures, and under the earth is a copper mesh that extends out from the base and is secured by grounding rods.

As an Electro Magnetic Pulse (EMP) travels to earth, whether from a Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) or a nuclear detonation in the atmosphere, it hits and runs along electrical power lines as well, building up voltage and amperage, which is what happened during the last solar storm a dozen years ago, blowing out transformers and leaving 6 million people in eastern Canada without power for weeks.

To prevent that problem, if you have a hard-wired generator, the wiring from the generator to the house should run in conduit that is grounded. The generator itself can have the frame grounded for added insurance, but that ground wire MUST be insulated and run to a different ground rod well away from the ground rod for building and conduit!

With radio's and smaller appliances, a Faraday cage can be built by using two cardboard boxes: one should fit tightly inside the other, and the item to be covered should itself fit reasonably well inside the smaller box. That is about the most work involved--finding the right size boxes! The outer box is then covered with aluminum foil or Mylar, as from a cheap "space blanket." A grounding wire is then taped to the foil. I then cover the foil with black 6 mil plastic, taped securely in place, to protect the foil from ripping. At the end of the ground wire I attach a cheap small alligator clip from Radio Shack. The item to be protected is placed inside the inner box, which acts as insulation from the outer box, and any EMP hitting the foil and is bled away by the ground wire.

Some medium sized electrical equipment can also easily fit into boxes covered with foil for EMP protection. My laptop computer, for example, fits easily into a Faraday box made from a box that held reams of paper: the entire lid is removable, allowing easy access to the laptop in its case, but is safely stored when not in use.

For larger items which cannot be boxed, such as living room TV sets, etc, I tape a Mylar space blanket to a piece of 6 mil black plastic sheet, using double-sticky tape every foot or so to make sure the Mylar stays in place (it is slippery). I leave a 2 inch edge of black plastic showing all around the space blanket, and while taping down the edges I put on a short lead of ground wire. When it appears that EMP or CME's are on the way, the blanket can be draped over the appliance, the alligator clip attached to a small, unobtrusive ground wire behind the cabinet, and any electromagnetic radiation will be diverted to the ground wire. Very cheap, simple, and once done, items can be "draped" for protection very quickly indeed. And the plastic blankets fold up neatly for storage, ready for use when needed.

The time to build Faraday cages or blankets is NOW, as when they are actually needed it will be far too late. Each box should be labeled on the ends and the top for the exact appliance they were built for, to eliminate any confusion when they must be protected in a hurry. Any electrical appliances not in use should be stored in the Faraday cage, where they will be kept clean, neat, in a known location, and protected against any sudden EMP surge.

==================================================
EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) info. collectionThis page will remain in a constant state of expansion, so bookmark and revisit often!Last updated: June 28, 2003 - Added "Hardening Your Computer Assets" and the link to theJournal of Electronic Defense.http://www.sphosting.com/myguinness/emp.htm
General EMP Info.
QST Magazine Articles
Military Manuals
Equipment Manufacturers
Faraday Cages
Congressional Testimony
"...the de facto national policy of nakedness to all of our potentially EMP-armed enemies takes on ever more the character of national scale masochism. It is perverse, irrational, and assuredly not necessary or foreordained."- Dr. Lowell Wood, Lawrence Livermore Labs
What is EMP? According to the Institute for Telecommunications Sciences, Electromagnetic Pulse is:
"1. The electromagnetic radiation from a nuclear explosion caused by Compton-recoil electrons and photoelectrons from photons scattered in the materials of the nuclear device or in a surrounding medium. The resulting electric and magnetic fields may couple with electrical/electronic systems to produce damaging current and voltage surges. May also be caused by non-nuclear means;
2. A broadband, high-intensity, short-duration burst of electromagnetic energy. Note: In the case of a nuclear detonation, the electromagnetic pulse consists of a continuous frequency spectrum. Most of the energy is distributed throughout the lower frequencies between 3 Hz and 30 kHz."
In plain language, it is an electromagnetic "shock wave" that is released from nuclear detonations that can seriously damage any electrical components in its path. EMP can travel either through air or through conductive pathways such as electrical or phone lines. It can affect electronic equipment regardless of whether the equipment is switched on or off.
The goal of this site is to help you protect your communications and computing gear from EMP, as well as provide an understanding of the threats to and vulnerabilities of our electronics-based society.

General EMP Information
The Electromagnetic Bomb - A Weapon of Electrical Mass Destruction - a long and interesting article on E-Bombs.
Balanced Electromagnetic Hardening Program - R&D wing of the Defense Threat Reduction Agency.
Electromagnetic Pulse-From Chaos To A Manageable Solution - A very interesting white paper by a USMC Major on the EMP threat, dated 1988.
A short Popular Mechanics article from 2001 on E-Bombs and the potential for terrorists to use them.
The Threat of High Altitude EMP to Force XXII - 20 page 1997 article from National Security Studies Quarterly on the threat to US Forces from EMP - Adobe .pdf document.
Hardening Your Computer Assets - an article by Carlo Kopp on how to protect IT systems from EMP - very good! Adobe .pdf document.

QST Magazine Articles - 1986In 1986, QST magazine published a 4-part article on "Electromagnetic Pulse and the Radio Amateur". The article offered some in-depth technical information on hardening radio equipment against lightning strikes or nuclear explosions. More than you ever wanted to know...Here are the 4 articles in Adobe Acrobat: (NOTE: files are hosted at the ARRL.org site)
Article 1 - How EMP works and its effects on antennas, equipment, phone lines, etc. (1.09MB .pdf file)
Article 2 - Tests of EMP & transient protection devices. (523k .pdf file)
Article 3 - More tests of EMP & transient protection devices (583k .pdf file)
Article 4 - Procedures and products to protect your gear (568k .pdf file)

Military Manuals
Military Handbook MIL-HDBK-1195 30 (SEPTEMBER 1988) - "Radio Frequency Shielded Enclosures" - 79 pages of technical and practical informtion on shielding devices from EMP and EMI. HTML Version or the Zipped Version which includes all the illustrations.
Field Manual 24-18 (Tactical Single Channel Radio Communications) has some good EMP info in Appendix J.
US Army Corps of Engineers Pamphlet EP 1110-3-2 - "Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) and Tempest Protection for Facilities"; a 467 page technical manual!

EMI/EMP Shielding Equipment ManufacturersManufacturers' websites, ranging from bomb-proof to simple surge protection.
CCI - Conduit-mount and explosion-proof EMI suppressors
Chomerics - EMI/EMP shielding for cables that uses a sheath that you zip around the cable and connections
Citel - Coaxial surge protectors, AC surge protectors, and more - good stuff!
Control Concepts - mostly large industrial applications
Fischer Custom Communications - check out the EM Pro Cord...neat stuff.
NexTek - mostly lightning surge protection, but still good stuff.
Polyphaser - Great products for the protection of your commo gear!

Faraday Cage Information - Faraday cages are devices that protect objects within the cage from electric charges and EMP. Based upon principles put forth by Michael Faraday in 1836, the Faraday cage is still being tinkered with by modern inventors. There are a LOT of strange ideas out there on what Faraday cages can and cannot do. I've tried to filter out the wingnuts and provide only solid data:
Bolt Lighning Protection - An EXCELLENT overview of the basic properties of a Faraday cage.
Dixel Electronics - This Israeli company manufactures all sorts of fascinating products like Mu-copper foil that you can roll onto walls like wall paper to create your own EMP-safe rooms; transparent protective mesh you can add to windows and more...

Congressional Testimony on EMP Topics
1997 Congressional Testimony on the effect of EMP Blasts on the national infrastructure in the House Committess on National Security - a long and fascinating read; Note - sometimes this link works, sometimes not - keep trying.
1999 Congressional Testimony on the effect of an EMP attack on the US economy.
1999 Testimony in front of the House Armed Services Committee from Dr. Lowell Wood from Livermore National Labs on the EMP threat.
1998 Testimony in front of the Joint Economic Committee on "Radio Frequency Weapons and Proliferation"

Other
The Journal of Electronic Defense - Publication of the Association of Old Crows, an association of electronic warfare parctitioners - very professional!

Letter from LDL.net Reader - Preparation and Outlook

2009-01-07T09:37:00.000-08:00

We have lost some members of our group because of their love of this World system. Yet several remain steadfast and determined to leave all behind to follow the Ruach Ha Kodesh wherever He leads.

We have been busy selling property and possessions, and reducing our worldly obligations. Father has been teaching us for the past few months about several necessary life skills, growing organic crops, building sandbag houses, Solar cooking and electric, wind power, distilling water and fuel for heating, cooking, lighting and transportation. Our desire is to live without the worlds services as much as possible so that we are not dependent upon them, but rather on our Heavenly Fathers provision and blessings.

We had plans of starting a community in Mexico, but our hearts long for His promised land. Since several of our members are from Hispanic decent we have our sights on the Negev, especially in the light of Obadiah 20 and the terrain, climate and environment is very much like Yuma. Father's will be done. We will be happy, thrilled and ecstatic when we find someplace to put our roots down.

When people ask, "Do you want to go to Israel?" I often respond by saying, "Not if I have to leave." We are not going as tourists, vacationers or sightseers. We are going with one way tickets. We realize that actually living in Israel is perhaps not possible, but living anywhere nearby Aqaba, Jordon may be the closest we can be at this time. But we do want to be wise and count the cost.

Messiah said, "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' Luke 14:27-30

We are attempting to make some contacts in the region and would appreciate any assistance you can offer. It would be helpful to be in contact with other believers who are self-sufficient, organic farmers who would like a small group to be a blessing to. We have taken your advice and have begun to study the modern countries of Israel and Jordon. If you would put us in contact with the Messianic community in the area of Jordan and /or Israel we would appreciate it very much.
I have a question regarding your references of Ezekiel 38-39. Are you of the understanding that the incident concerning Gog and Magog happens at this time and not at the end of the thousand years? Revelation 20:7, 8 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.

Many blessings to you and all those who help and bless you in your affairs.

Yuma, Arizona

Put to the Test!

2009-01-06T10:40:00.000-08:00

I'm going to take this opportunity to say to our readers that Yedidah does not host this web site or http://www.laydownlife.net/. She is a personal friend of mine in which I find her writings informative and inspired.

I have received several emails concerning the accuracy and validity of her information. And others just simply disagreeing with her beliefs. On the other hand, I have received many more letters thanking her for her writings and praising the Father for inspiring her to write.

We should always put every matter posed to the test. It is healthy spiritually to always question what we read, listen to and receive. We should never receive anything without a second witness and having not matched it up to the Father's word.

It is never healthy to rebuke someone in anger or for the sake of correcting someone when we, ourselves, are in the wrong spirit. It is also unhealthy to just simply receive anyone's writings as factual and thinking that it is of the Father. Again, put to the test and wait for the Father's answer to speak to you.

Please watch out for those who have a "controlling" spirit. We all need to be personally responsible for ourselves. Clues to someone possibly having a controlling spirit are those who:

1. Say they only want to protect the flock.
2. Tries to speak for the flock.
3. Rebukes another in anger.
4. Has difficulty in showing forgiveness.
5. Lacks humility.
6. Becomes protective of a flock in an unhealthy manner.
7. I hate to say this, but one who receives tithes and offerings is often suspect to protecting that income and not looking to the Father to provide.
8. One who generally does not administer Mt. 18:15 in going to a brother.
9. One who has difficulty in allowing the flock make decisions for itself, rather than the individual making decisions for the flock.
10. One who proves himself unworthy of not leaving the 99 to go after the lost sheep.

If you have any comments or recommendations, please share.

Shalom

Blog for LayDownLife.net

2009-01-04T16:09:00.000-08:00

LDL.net has made the decision to add this blog to the website for the sake of sharing discussion and questions. We're very adamant about the gift we're given among believers in which iron to sharpens iron.

I will be adding letters from the past in which questions have been asked. We have had many ask just who we are and what we believe. And although that is a valid question, we should always be concerned about personal responsibility and not be swayed into believing something that our Father does not put upon us himself.